Posted by: Havohej : Category: ¶ One of the reasons I pulled DFIAS out of 0.0 space was to get away from the alliance politics. Now, though, I’m finding that even if you’re not in the alliance yourself, if you want to do anything besides dedicated piracy you can’t really avoid the politics.
¶ In my last entry, I explained how DFIAS had taken up Not Red; Don’t Shoot RoE inside of the Molden Heath region. This has led to three very different interactions with three different alliances: Electus Matari, Foundati0n and the lesser known Valhalla Alliance.
¶ First, upon moving into Hedaleolfarber, reports indicated that the primary anti-pirate corporation based in the system was Kinetic Vector, formerly of Intrepid Crossing alliance. Knowing that myself and the other outlaws in DFIAS would make them jumpy, I took initiative and contacted them first to assure them of our non-criminal intentions for the system - that was also covered in my last entry. What wasn’t covered was the hassles involved in getting my people into the common intel channel (such as it is) in Molden Heath: Molden Intel.
¶ This channel, operated by Electus Matari, is publicly advertised on anchored cans sprinkled throughout the region on or near stargates leading into lowsec space. Electus Matari is a fairly well-known anti-pirate alliance whose primary focus is to support the goals of the Minmatar Republic which leads to the secondary focus of protecting the Republic’s weaker citizens, hence the anti-pirate stance.
¶ The Molden Intel channel is open to anyone for sharing information regarding pirate gate/station camps or just large pirate presence in a given system in Molden Heath. This openness leads to instances of poorly reported intel (if not outright misreported) and opens the channel up to spies which everyone is regularly cautioned to keep in mind. Still, for being full of inexperienced Empire dwellers who contribute nothing to any combat effort, using the channel only to keep their undeserving asses from getting their faction-fit Ravens blown up in a gate camp they were too stupid to scout for themselves, it’s not that bad… could be worse. As an inconvenience to the pirates, any known pirates found in the channel by the -EM- operators are banned from the channel. It only took two days for one of the losers to see me, my ship flashing red on their overview due to the DED’s automated warning systems, and report me which quickly got DFIAS excluded from the channel.
¶ Well, I said, that was fast… time to contact -EM-.
More Reasonable Than They Look
¶ My first point of contact was Carinelle Avriette, one of two listed diplomats for Electus Matari.
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Channel ID: 2134504400
Channel Name: Private Chat (Carinelle Avriette)
Listener: Havohej
Session started: 2008.08.06 09:05:03
—————————————————————?[ 2008.08.06 09:05:19 ] Havohej > You are a diplomat for Electus Matari, is that correct?
?[ 2008.08.06 09:05:22 ] Carinelle Avriette > hello how can I help you?
?[ 2008.08.06 09:05:36 ] Carinelle Avriette > yes I am of the em diplomats
?[ 2008.08.06 09:06:01 ] Havohej > Seems we’ve run afoul of each other somewhere, as you have DFIAS set to -5.0 for allegations of piracy.
?[ 2008.08.06 09:08:07 ] Havohej > DFIAS is taking a sojourn from 0.0 alliance politics, much like Kinetic Vector, and has holed up in Molden Heath. Imagine our surprise to find ourselves blacklisted from what appears to be the most commonly used local intel loop against the pirates
?[ 2008.08.06 09:08:17 ] Havohej > such as BYDI, with whom we’ve tangled twice tonight…
?[ 2008.08.06 09:08:27 ] Carinelle Avriette > reading our database to look the reason
?[ 2008.08.06 09:08:56 ] Carinelle Avriette > seems like you have been sreen in MH pirating
?[ 2008.08.06 09:09:05 ] Carinelle Avriette > and you have NBSI politic?
?[ 2008.08.06 09:09:34 ] Havohej > In Molden Heath, as per our recently made agreement with KVEC, DFIAS operates NRDS in Molden Heath, NBSI everywhere else.
?[ 2008.08.06 09:10:08 ] Havohej > Living in 0.0, you learn that blues aren’t necessarily friends and neutrals almost always wish you ill… I’ve found it to be no different in empire.
?[ 2008.08.06 09:10:22 ] Carinelle Avriette > we require NBSI everywhere in the Republic are (MH, Metropolis, Heimatar)
?[ 2008.08.06 09:11:29 ] Havohej > Listen… I’m Minmatar myself, but the Republic never did anything for me that I couldn’t do for myself. I could personally care less about the crusade EM appears to be fighting… my sole concern is for DFIAS. We can either fend for ourselves
?[ 2008.08.06 09:11:52 ] Havohej > completely and withdraw from the NAPs we’ve made here thus far, or we can peacefully co-exist with those who don’t wish anyone harm and help fight the real pirates…
?[ 2008.08.06 09:12:30 ] Havohej > We assumed it would be more desirable to work with the anti-pirate element than against it, considering that we share enemies in this region.
?[ 2008.08.06 09:12:55 ] Carinelle Avriette > we operate on all of those areas so you will stay -5 to us, but since you are NRDS in MH I can take up that issue with the intel channel owners and see if you would be taken out that pirate list there
?[ 2008.08.06 09:13:43 ] Havohej > That would be acceptable to us, and I think it’s a compromise that anyone who dwells in Molden Heath would benefit from…
?[ 2008.08.06 09:14:03 ] Havohej > All night long, my people report reds in corpchat and on Ventrilo, but we’ve no means to relay that information to the rest of the region.
?[ 2008.08.06 09:14:40 ] Carinelle Avriette > I’ll take up the issue with my boss and see what they think
?[ 2008.08.06 09:14:43 ] Havohej > By reds, I mean anyone on this list, most of whom you’ll recognize as local (MH) pirates.
?[ 2008.08.06 09:14:44 ] Havohej > http://dfias.evekb.co.uk/?a=standings
?[ 2008.08.06 09:14:56 ] Havohej > Naturally, you were also set negative once we learned that you had us negative…
?[ 2008.08.06 09:16:15 ] Havohej > A slightly closer inspection will show that we’ve already begun fighting them… (tonight went poorly =s)
?[ 2008.08.06 09:16:41 ] Havohej > Anyway, thanks for your time… I trust you’ll send a message to let me know of the conclusion?
?[ 2008.08.06 09:17:27 ] Carinelle Avriette > if you mainly operate in the MH, wouldn’t it be much bother to you aply NRDS politic in the Heimatar and Metro too?
?[ 2008.08.06 09:17:56 ] Carinelle Avriette > yes taking things forwards always takes couple of days, Il’ll let you now what other thought about
?[ 2008.08.06 09:17:58 ] Havohej > Yes and no.
?[ 2008.08.06 09:18:19 ] Havohej > I mean, what does it benefit us to have neutrals that don’t know us shooting at us unexpectedly?
?[ 2008.08.06 09:18:37 ] Havohej > At least here, at home, we’re becoming ‘regular faces’ that most neutrals won’t bother…
?[ 2008.08.06 09:19:04 ] Havohej > In Heimatar, or Metropolis, we couldn’t expect the same safe passage from non-pirates… NBSI is a means of self-defense, not necessarily piracy.
?[ 2008.08.06 09:34:04 ] Carinelle Avriette > ok but you guys sound good’ish guys so I hope we can find some solution
?[ 2008.08.06 09:34:17 ] Havohej > /emote grumbles about being banned from Molden Intel for the second time and not even violencing anyone’s boats this time.
?[ 2008.08.06 09:34:55 ] Carinelle Avriette > I’ll get back to you later
¶ Carinelle was easy to speak with as you can see. She maintained the official position of -EM- while being understanding of DFIAS’ position and promised to move the issue up the ladder to find a resolution. Fair enough, can’t ask for more than that. It just so happened the next day that Evanda Char, -EM- Executrix, was in Hedaleolfarber on business with their Foundati0n and Kinetic Vector allies. Upon seeing me appear on the Local comm channel, she asked if I had time for a private conversation which I accepted with interest, not having expected to deal directly with her.
—————————————————————
Channel ID: 2134548763
Channel Name: Private Chat (Evanda Char)
Listener: Havohej
Session started: 2008.08.07 19:37:04
—————————————————————?[ 2008.08.07 19:37:34 ] Evanda Char > Hi, I understand from Nelle that we have you flagged as pirates and you aren’t.
?[ 2008.08.07 19:38:06 ] Evanda Char > Nelle being our diplomat Carinelle
?[ 2008.08.07 19:38:46 ] Havohej > I’m not sure that would be entirely accurate from your perspective… rather say that while I don’t run the corporation with a pointedly criminal focus, I don’t much care if someone loses a ship - so long as they’re not blue, of course.
?[ 2008.08.07 19:39:19 ] Havohej > However, I’m a practical person and recognize the need for a secure home.
?[ 2008.08.07 19:39:27 ] Evanda Char > /emote nods.
?[ 2008.08.07 19:40:12 ] Evanda Char > With the way things have been round here, we’re being less rigid on what we define as a pirate and what we don’t; we’re more concerned about things like huge gatecamps that lock the area down
?[ 2008.08.07 19:41:05 ] Havohej > That sort of thing doesn’t do anybody any good. With my own relationship with CONCORD, it’s difficult enough to receive shipments from the more lively trading hubs…
?[ 2008.08.07 19:41:39 ] Evanda Char > /emote nods. I quite understand - I’m looking to make Hedal a bit more of a hub, myself.
?[ 2008.08.07 19:41:42 ] Havohej > So far, we have set the local pirate organizations, such as Beyond Divinity, to negative standings so as to see them coming that much earlier… last night, we had a couple of engagements with them.
?[ 2008.08.07 19:42:26 ] Havohej > The first went well, the second…. well, next time should be different. *smirks slightly*
?[ 2008.08.07 19:43:12 ] Evanda Char > May I ask, what if average joe from the area wanted to arrange blue with you to make sure he didn’t accidentally get shot? If he didn’t seem likely to be a threat or a spy, I mean. Would you be open to that or do you have a minimal blues or a charging
?[ 2008.08.07 19:43:15 ] Evanda Char > policy
?[ 2008.08.07 19:43:46 ] Evanda Char > And I hope you rip their intestines out and make them into sausages :)
?[ 2008.08.07 19:43:53 ] Evanda Char > BYDI, I mean
?[ 2008.08.07 19:44:26 ] Havohej > Our outlook is a simple one that we adopted during our time in the 0.0 political arena - that is, blues should be useful, everyone else is a threat. That said, we’ve no intentions to violate the terms of our non-aggression pact with KVEC and will
?[ 2008.08.07 19:44:53 ] Havohej > continue to follow the NRDS RoE in Molden Heath… we’ve gone blue with them because, from what we could tell, they actively fight the local pirates.
?[ 2008.08.07 19:45:31 ] Havohej > DFIAS was already on bad terms with most of the local criminals, so it only made sense… so far, we haven’t been able to collaborate on a combat op, but I hope to see that change as DFIAS gets more settled in…
?[ 2008.08.07 19:46:01 ] Evanda Char > They do indeed. Well, what I’d like to do is get you unredded as soon as possible, *classified - sensitive*
?[ 2008.08.07 19:46:11 ] Havohej > I’m sorry, I ramble. The simple answer to your question would be, we don’t charge for positive standings but we see no need to enter a formal agreement with someone who won’t be on the battlefield with us.
?[ 2008.08.07 19:47:07 ] Havohej > /emote nods. I felt that would be the most prudent choice for all involved, as well. How often are your forces in the region, if that information isn’t too sensitive…?
?[ 2008.08.07 19:47:57 ] Evanda Char > At the moment, it’s wildly variable - *classified - sensitive*
?[ 2008.08.07 19:49:11 ] Evanda Char > How would you feel about mutual neutral for now?
?[ 2008.08.07 19:49:48 ] Havohej > It’s probably the best course of action at this juncture… would that enable DFIAS to share in the local intel loop?
?[ 2008.08.07 19:50:09 ] Evanda Char > Yes, I’m taking you off the block list there now
?[ 2008.08.07 19:50:41 ] Evanda Char > I’m just going to invite you to the channel again - tell me if you bounce
?[ 2008.08.07 19:50:47 ] Havohej > /emote nods.
?[ 2008.08.07 19:51:30 ] Evanda Char > And that’s the red removed as well… let me update our paperwork
?[ 2008.08.07 19:52:25 ] Havohej > I’ve reset standings toward Electus Matari. Thank you, Miss Char. I’m glad that we were able to understand each other. Perhaps over time we might develop a mutually beneficial relationship… but I’m not sure that DFIAS is the sort of organization
?[ 2008.08.07 19:52:35 ] Havohej > you generally befriend.
?[ 2008.08.07 19:53:03 ] Evanda Char > /emote smiles. “I’m not sure where things will end up, but you’re certainly the kind of organisation I can respect.”
?[ 2008.08.07 19:53:27 ] Evanda Char > Please tender my apologies to your corporation for the redding and the misreports in Molden Intel
?[ 2008.08.07 19:53:41 ] Havohej > We understand - there’s nothing to apologize for.
?[ 2008.08.07 19:54:09 ] Havohej > By your charter, you had to do what you felt necessary to defend the Matari people… were I a more noble man, I might’ve done the same.
¶ The rest of the conversation went into discussions best not aired openly in this venue. Suffice it to say that DFIAS remains neutral to Electus Matari at this juncture but is open to the idea of working together from time to time for mutual gain. At the end of the conversation, DFIAS had access to the most commonly-used anti-pirate intel channel in the region and were off of -EM-’s Molden Heath target list - both sooner than expected. The future looked uncomplicated, and uncomplicated is good.
¶ But looks can be deceiving.
We’re Foundati0n, Bitch!
¶ Based in Great Wildlands, Foundati0n is a long-time ally of Electus Matari with an anti-pirate reputation. They have other reputations too, though, such as being extremely fond of hot-dropping capital ship fleets on smaller enemy forces. Word has it that every FDN ship has a cyno fitted and 500 liquid ozone in the hold. Another rumor is that frequently FDN pilots violate the alliance’s NRDS policy - this is generally called “going cowboy.” I’ve never encountered a rogue FDN combat pilot, but I did have an encounter with a rogue “diplomat.”
¶ The encounter was spurred by the following exchange on Molden Intel:
?[ 2008.08.09 19:27:29 ] Binner > 4 reds in oddelulf
?[ 2008.08.09 19:31:33 ] lashana darkmoon > 1 in half but he is a reformed pirate
?[ 2008.08.09 19:32:11 ] Havohej > There’s no such thing as a reformed… oh, wait.
?[ 2008.08.09 19:32:26 ] lashana darkmoon > lol
¶ In the interest of public relations, it’s good to get people used to seeing us around. If they see us reporting on the intel channel, and if they see us out fighting the local pirates, there will be less likelihood of someone making a mistake regarding who to shoot at (or not shoot at) when it really counts.
¶ Seeing my joke about reformed pirates, a pilot named Baske, CEO of Space-Bar, a Foundati0n member corporation, requested a conversation. Expecting it to be just another worthless empire corp who had us red ’cause we flipped their can once upon a time asking if it was safe to set us back to neutral, I accepted.
—————————————————————
Channel ID: 2134612522
Channel Name: Private Chat (Baske)
Listener: Havohej
Session started: 2008.08.09 19:50:25
—————————————————————?[ 2008.08.09 19:50:37 ] Havohej > Bernie Mac died :(
?[ 2008.08.09 19:51:03 ] Baske > oh, sorry abotu that, tho I have no clue who he is hehe
?[ 2008.08.09 19:51:12 ] Havohej > I’m sure that wasn’t the greeting you were expecting. What can I do for you?
?[ 2008.08.09 19:51:33 ] Baske > i just looked at molden heath and saw your joke hehehe, reformed pirate…. :D
?[ 2008.08.09 19:51:55 ] Havohej > hehe
?[ 2008.08.09 19:52:14 ] Baske > anyway, would like to ask if you are serious about that NBSI anywhere but MH, cause you should really include GW in that NBSI thingy to open up your options in GW
?[ 2008.08.09 19:52:28 ] Havohej > For what?
?[ 2008.08.09 19:52:32 ] Baske > eh, opposite
?[ 2008.08.09 19:52:50 ] Baske > to be firends with fdn, who is a not so little player in the anti-piracy in MH
?[ 2008.08.09 19:53:11 ] Baske > if you came to GW, and we saw you bio, you would be open target immidiatly
¶ Was he serious? He was asking me to consider not shooting FDN and their pets in Great Wildlands and all he could offer was a threat? He must not know who we are, I thought. I chose my words carefully, intending to let him know that DFIAS wasn’t afraid of FDN by illustrating that I’ve hunted and killed in GW before. I also wanted to warn him that he was starting on a path that wouldn’t help FDN’s people in Hedaleolfarber.
?[ 2008.08.09 19:53:31 ] Havohej > As would you guys… I’ve been to Great Wildlands before.
?[ 2008.08.09 19:53:40 ] Havohej > If this is an attempt at diplomacy, you’re not doing very well.
?[ 2008.08.09 19:53:53 ] Baske > nah, im just talking
?[ 2008.08.09 19:54:15 ] Baske > and I dont need you to judge me, I dont need anyone to judge me hehe, i am who i am :)
?[ 2008.08.09 19:54:36 ] Baske > but, it is, tbh, just a friendly request
¶ Friendly request…? Who said we were friends? Foundati0n and DFIAS weren’t blue, and anyone who has been to 0.0 knows that even blues aren’t necessarily your friends.
?[ 2008.08.09 19:54:59 ] Havohej > Unless there’s something specific that benefits DFIAS in Great Wildlands, we prefer to have as few blues and as much freedom as possible…
?[ 2008.08.09 19:55:23 ] Baske > well, you would quickly become targets…..in MH as well
?[ 2008.08.09 19:55:35 ] Baske > im not threatening, im not in position to do that
?[ 2008.08.09 19:55:36 ] Havohej > Is that a threat…?
?[ 2008.08.09 19:55:40 ] Baske > im just saying it how it is
¶ “How it is.” I see, I thought. This guy, who isn’t even listed as a Foundati0n diplomat, thinks he’ll “help out” by using his alliance’s size to try and intimidate the independents into not messing with FDN. In one sentence, he says that DFIAS will become targets in Molden Heath, which implies that Electus Matari and Kinetic Vector would follow suit. The fact that he said he wasn’t threatening before I could even get the question out makes it very clear that he was trying to “muscle” me with poorly veiled threats… like a mobster who tells a shop owner, “You know, this is a very nice bakery you got here. It would be a shame if somethin’ happened to it. I’m not threatenin’ you, see, I just think it would be a good idea if you give me some ISK as a means of making sure nothing happens. It’s not a threat at all.” Some anti-pirate alliance Foundati0n is!
¶ Over the course of the rest of this little chat, I warn him repeatedly that he’s making his alliance a new enemy… but he just wasn’t getting it.
?[ 2008.08.09 19:55:43 ] Havohej > I’ve been leaving your people alone in this system all week.
?[ 2008.08.09 19:55:50 ] Havohej > You’re pushing toward hostilities…
?[ 2008.08.09 19:56:29 ] Baske > look, i havent said you would be shot down or anything, I am just saying you would become red sooner or later
?[ 2008.08.09 19:56:49 ] Baske > if thats how you take it, you are not very anti-pirate like
?[ 2008.08.09 19:56:52 ] Havohej > Wanna do it now?
?[ 2008.08.09 19:56:59 ] Havohej > I’m not appreciating your threats.
?[ 2008.08.09 19:57:06 ] Baske > its not threats dude
?[ 2008.08.09 19:57:08 ] Havohej > Are you an approved FDN diplomat?
?[ 2008.08.09 19:57:23 ] Baske > ok, forget im fdn, take me as a stranger who just knows how fdn works, okay
?[ 2008.08.09 19:57:45 ] Havohej > List for me FDN’s diplomats, please. You’ve created a situation.
?[ 2008.08.09 19:57:55 ] Baske > what I am doing, is trying to solve a problem before it arises, that is all, honestly
?[ 2008.08.09 19:58:09 ] Havohej > List for me FDN’s diplomats, please. You’ve created a situation.
?[ 2008.08.09 19:58:51 ] Baske > find them yourself, being this rude
?[ 2008.08.09 19:59:17 ] Baske > just trying to keep peace mate, and you accuse me of anything but
?[ 2008.08.09 19:59:24 ] Havohej > Alert them to the fact that DFIAS now sees F0undation at -5
?[ 2008.08.09 19:59:32 ] Havohej > If they would like to change this, they need to contact me.
?[ 2008.08.09 19:59:48 ] Havohej > Next time, leave diplomacy to your diplomats and don’t make veiled threats.
¶ In the interest of keeping our word, I sent a warning message to knightstarNC, Foundati0n’s first listed diplomat, as well as to the -EM- diplomat informing them of our decision to set Foundati0n to negative standings, citing unwarranted threats from Baske as the reason and offering to share the log of the conversation if there was any doubt as to the veracity of our grievance with FDN.
¶ I was contacted about a half an hour later by knightstarNC who happened to be online at the time.
—————————————————————
Channel ID: 2134613452
Channel Name: Private Chat (knightstarNC)
Listener: Havohej
Session started: 2008.08.09 20:19:53
—————————————————————?[ 2008.08.09 20:20:04 ] knightstarNC > hi
?[ 2008.08.09 20:20:09 ] Havohej > Hello.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:20:22 ] knightstarNC > thank you for your eve mail
?[ 2008.08.09 20:20:52 ] Havohej > DFIAS has had quite a time convincing certain elements that we’re not pirating in Molden Heath… opening fire on you without letting you know would’ve been a setback.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:21:51 ] knightstarNC > yes i hear that, from what i can tell and as i tell everone that convo me with these issues i wasernt there
?[ 2008.08.09 20:22:10 ] knightstarNC > all i know is the charicter convoed me about that happened
?[ 2008.08.09 20:22:33 ] Havohej > I’ve got the chat log… I spent about 5 minutes listening to Baske issue veiled threats and tell me “I’m not threatening you, I’m just letting you know.”
?[ 2008.08.09 20:23:05 ] knightstarNC > yes i know
?[ 2008.08.09 20:23:15 ] Havohej > That’s not acceptable to us.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:23:32 ] knightstarNC > he said, and i understand
?[ 2008.08.09 20:23:34 ] Havohej > I’m not going to tolerate that any more than you would tolerate it from DFIAS.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:24:24 ] knightstarNC > for sure but i would talk to someone like a diplo before making a disigen of setting someone red
?[ 2008.08.09 20:24:38 ] knightstarNC > but that is gone
?[ 2008.08.09 20:24:41 ] Havohej > Baske was doing a good job of talking like a diplo.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:25:02 ] Havohej > I requested a diplo twice during the conversation.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:25:05 ] knightstarNC > not realy if you set us red
?[ 2008.08.09 20:25:10 ] Havohej > If you’d like to read it, I’d be happy to e-mail it to you.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:25:31 ] knightstarNC > can you eve mail them to me
?[ 2008.08.09 20:28:18 ] Havohej > Sent, over the course of four EVE-Mails.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:30:14 ] knightstarNC > rgr give me a few min reading it
?[ 2008.08.09 20:34:33 ] knightstarNC > ok read it
?[ 2008.08.09 20:35:03 ] knightstarNC > know that convo i can see it from both sides.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:35:38 ] Havohej > I’m sure you understand that I see it only from my side, and from my side I was told that if DFIAS doesn’t adopt NRDS in Great Wildlands, FDN will set us red.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:35:58 ] knightstarNC > yes i can
?[ 2008.08.09 20:37:04 ] knightstarNC > but i can also see it from baske side he was tring to advoyed a insident betwen out 2 groups
?[ 2008.08.09 20:37:31 ] Havohej > There’s been no reason as yet to expect one.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:38:00 ] knightstarNC > ok you know we fly NRDS yes
?[ 2008.08.09 20:38:26 ] Havohej > I hear tell you’ve been acting NBSI lately, but yes, I’m aware of FDN’s NRDS reputation.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:39:19 ] knightstarNC > yes and as you know with this game NO system is perfect
?[ 2008.08.09 20:39:28 ] Havohej > Heh.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:39:47 ] Havohej > In other words, sometimes somebody goes rogue for the sake of a little fun.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:40:22 ] knightstarNC > lets say peaple make merstakes
?[ 2008.08.09 20:40:37 ] Havohej > You mean like Baske?
?[ 2008.08.09 20:41:00 ] knightstarNC > i me like everone no one is perfect
?[ 2008.08.09 20:41:28 ] Havohej > You see, I got the impression that he felt powerful in the size of his alliance and expected that he could lean on me with a couple of veiled threats and I would cower and say “Yessir Massah, we gon go not red don’t shoot in GW too, Massah!”
?[ 2008.08.09 20:41:33 ] Havohej > But in fact, that didn’t happen.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:41:57 ] Havohej > Now I’m getting the impression that you’re not concerned with the CEO of one of your corporations making an ass of himself and creating this problem.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:42:13 ] Havohej > I get the impression that your attitude regarding the situation is “Oh well, shit happens.”
?[ 2008.08.09 20:42:42 ] knightstarNC > but then you might have looked at the messige and thought hes thretoning me
?[ 2008.08.09 20:42:56 ] Havohej > I did.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:43:05 ] Havohej > And he was - are you denying that?
?[ 2008.08.09 20:43:39 ] knightstarNC > my attitude to this stiuation is can we find some come ground
?[ 2008.08.09 20:43:55 ] Havohej > What do you have in mind?
?[ 2008.08.09 20:44:28 ] knightstarNC > first a queston for you
?[ 2008.08.09 20:44:37 ] knightstarNC > you follow nbsi right?
?[ 2008.08.09 20:44:49 ] Havohej > Everywhere other than Molden Heath.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:44:59 ] Havohej > Inside of Molden Heath, we don’t shoot neutrals.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:45:06 ] knightstarNC > kk
?[ 2008.08.09 20:45:16 ] knightstarNC > so do you live always in MH
?[ 2008.08.09 20:45:35 ] knightstarNC > or do you roam for fun sometimes
?[ 2008.08.09 20:45:35 ] Havohej > We live here, we roam elsewhere.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:45:52 ] Havohej > The phrase “don’t shit in your own back yard” comes to mind.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:46:06 ] knightstarNC > i have seen the kill board and have seen you have once come down to GW
?[ 2008.08.09 20:46:11 ] knightstarNC > and for sure
?[ 2008.08.09 20:46:31 ] Havohej > More than once, just didn’t fight FDN every time.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:46:52 ] knightstarNC > kk
?[ 2008.08.09 20:47:24 ] knightstarNC > then i could put this statment as a threat to FDN
?[ 2008.08.09 20:47:34 ] knightstarNC > [ 2008.08.09 19:54:59 ] Havohej > Unless there’s something specific that benefits DFIAS in Great Wildlands, we prefer to have as few blues and as much freedom as possible…
?[ 2008.08.09 20:47:55 ] knightstarNC > i dont becouse thats the nature of this game
?[ 2008.08.09 20:48:06 ] Havohej > If you wish to take it that way, then that’s a threat to everybody in EVE outside of Molden Heath. I couldn’t be bothered to go threatening everyone ;)
?[ 2008.08.09 20:48:32 ] knightstarNC > we all play this game to pvp in one form or other
?[ 2008.08.09 20:48:37 ] Havohej > I spoke with Electus Matari and they didn’t feel it was a threat.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:48:45 ] knightstarNC > so i dont take it as a treat
?[ 2008.08.09 20:49:10 ] knightstarNC > threat i take it as you guys wanting some fun some times
?[ 2008.08.09 20:50:35 ] Havohej > Everybody does - at least, that I’ve flown with.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:50:42 ] knightstarNC > know the way i see it FDN has no intrest in making more reds
?[ 2008.08.09 20:50:45 ] Havohej > Lately our fun has been against the local pirates.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:50:58 ] Havohej > As well as some neutrals and pirates in Heimatar
?[ 2008.08.09 20:51:12 ] knightstarNC > and in MH we have comman enermys
?[ 2008.08.09 20:51:29 ] Havohej > We do.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:52:13 ] knightstarNC > now this is up to you and your corp from that i see how he came over was wrong,
?[ 2008.08.09 20:52:42 ] knightstarNC > i say what happens outside of GW is not my bisness
?[ 2008.08.09 20:53:00 ] knightstarNC > i have enough issue in GW to keep me bisy
?[ 2008.08.09 20:53:41 ] knightstarNC > you can keep us red if you wish if you wish
?[ 2008.08.09 20:54:05 ] Havohej > I’m willing to let the matter rest and set FDN back to neutral, provided Baske is willing to apoligize to me directly for overstepping his boundaries and admit to making veiled threats.
?[ 2008.08.09 20:56:33 ] knightstarNC > hold on m8
?[ 2008.08.09 21:07:27 ] knightstarNC > ok how about this he appolgise for the poor chose of words.
?[ 2008.08.09 21:07:41 ] Havohej > Not acceptable.
?[ 2008.08.09 21:08:06 ] Havohej > If that concludes our business…?
?[ 2008.08.09 21:08:19 ] knightstarNC > looks like it does
?[ 2008.08.09 21:08:31 ] Havohej > Speaks well for FDN.
?[ 2008.08.09 21:08:49 ] knightstarNC > i tryed
?[ 2008.08.09 21:08:56 ] Havohej > DFIAS’ members are all held responsible for their actions - had this been done by one of my people, he’d be out. You tolerate this sort of behaviour from CEOs of your member corporations…
?[ 2008.08.09 21:09:07 ] Havohej > Seems what they’re saying about you folks locally is true.
?[ 2008.08.09 21:09:09 ] knightstarNC > all that can be said for me
?[ 2008.08.09 21:09:12 ] Havohej > Good day.
¶ Having no further need to deal with his terrible English, I closed the conversation and informed my corporation that we would indeed be remaining hostile with Foundati0n.
¶ Personally, I can’t stand the large alliances. They all have this arrogance to them, their members thinking that just being a member of a corporation that happens to be in that alliance entitles them to liberties that ‘normal’ pilots wouldn’t have. A prime example would be EnginUr, the Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate Hurricane pilot who thought he could rat and salvage in Eifer (lowsec Heimatar) unhindered because he was in a large 0.0 alliance - surely nobody would have the balls to bother him, right? Wrong. Baske here was the same thing, only without all the Republic Fleet EMP ammo being used. Baske thought that his being a CEO of a FDN corporation meant that I’d simply bow my head and extend our NRDS Rules of Engagement to Great Wildlands. Instead, we’ve begun roaming into 0.0 space more often, pointedly choosing Great Wildlands rather than Etherium Reach as hunting grounds. At the time of this entry, we haven’t seen Foundati0n, other than to not die on their 50-man gate camp in M-M, but we have killed a few of their pets…
¶ So congratulations, Baske, you went around your alliance diplomats and took it upon yourself to get another corporation that was previously leaving you alone to turn its attention toward hunting in your space on a regular basis. And congratulations, knightstarNC - you failed to convince Baske of his error and decided to tolerate his refusal to apologize, thus allowing his pride to create a new enemy - and oh, look! Electus Matari isn’t going to help you, they haven’t even kicked us off the intel channel. Go you.
¶ As much as I was looking forward to not having to deal with so much political maneuvering…
-Havo out.
August 19th, 2008 at 11:09 am
I understand the frustration with Foundation. They were set to blue to my alliance, but they were using a neutral scout. We popped the scout after aggresion, then a 60+ BS gang jumped through, and proceeded to try and extort us for the cost of the ship. It did not end well for my alliance’s 15-man roaming bc gang… They were set red very soon thereafter.
August 19th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
It’s my firm belief that the only reason they’re allowed to exist is that they “own” some shitty NPC space and it’s not worth kicking them out of it… I mean there’s a LITTLE bit of good truesec in GW, but it’s so far from the station systems, most people who aren’t running macro ratting cloaker Raven accounts couldn’t be bothered :P
Still, their long-standing “supremacy” in Great Wildlands seems to have them thinking they’re stronger than they are… I can’t wait til they decide they’re strong enough to take some real 0.0 space and fail miserably - it’ll be funny to watch the flame wars on CAOD.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Your current policy reads like ‘I can come to your house and shoot at you, but if you come to my house and shoot at me, I’ll claim to be an innocent neutral’. I can see where people living outside MH would feel free to shoot at you, even inside MH. If I had to make a bet, I would say that you will have each other red very quickly.
August 26th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Never innocent - with a negative security status, you can’t get away with such a claim.
The policy is simply as stated - we agree to not pirate in Molden Heath, in the interest of co-existing and fighting the established pirates with our fellow Hedaleolfarber residents.
In actuality, we haven’t done much pirating at all since moving to Molden Heath - we’ve fought BYDI a few times and after Baske’s threats and Foundati0n subsequently being identified as enemies, we went into Great Wildlands (it had been months since the last time we were in GW before that).
I will never, ever claim that DFIAS is an anti-pirate corporation, simply because I really don’t care… piracy isn’t our focus right now, but it’s not like I’ll kick a guy out for ransoming someone *outside* of Molden Heath.
At the same time, we have a very strict participation policy - if the corp is in MH, then the members need to be in MH… so there aren’t a lot of opportunities to go our yelling “Yarr!” if the rest of the corporation isn’t (and we’re not - our resources are being focused in other directions right now, which should make for an interesting blog post in a couple of weeks, if not sooner).
As I explained to an FDN pilot whose Brutix we destroyed the other day in Hedaleolfarber, our intention is not to pirate Foundati0n in Molden Heath. As soon as we receive Baske’s formal apology, as well as acknowledgment that he was in fact making poorly veiled threats and speaking out of place, we will reset FDN. Until then, we see an alliance that will threaten people into setting them blue or changing their RoE as no different from BYDI. “Might makes right” is not an “anti-pirate” stance, but it’s Foundati0n’s stance… you do the math, eh?
September 12th, 2008 at 8:31 am
Thanks for putting this up mate, for everyone to see.
Once again, I did not try to threat you, I tried to explain the most likely outcome of your policies, unless you changed them slightly.
I am still not in a position to make threats. So if you read any threats, it’s you misinteprating my vocabulary, which might not be perfect, as english is not my native language.
I checked out Havohej’s character after a funny little remark in a channel we both share. Then I saw the corp description and decided to try to avoid any major upcoming issues, by creating a small immidiate issue.
I am sorry that you carry so much mistrust to other people, that you interpret what I wrote as hostile. This is YOUR problem, not mine !
September 12th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Leave diplomacy to diplomats, as it’s clear that you don’t understand how it works. You were warned that your words were coming across as hostile, and cautioned more than once to drop the issue and have your alliance’s real diplomats contact me if you were so concerned. Just like you didn’t use the exact words “This is a threat!” I didn’t use those exact words.
As it is right now, DFIAS is on Hiatus while I pursue other avenues. When I return to DFIAS, FDN will remain red… if you still exist, by then.
September 17th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
From fdn’s perspective id guess it was basically a “hey, if you dont nrds in gw we’ll shoot you in mh” stance.
Sounds like you overreacted.
Ghost, if you shot a neutral inside of gw then of course fdn would jump your fleet for piracy….
September 17th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
An NRDS alliance would have no reason to attack a neutral corporation anywhere; that sort of ’stance’ is contrary to their supposed anti-pirate policy.
Baske is not a diplomat for FDN and had no business contacting anybody about standings to begin with, let alone making thinly veiled threats about it. Had an actual Foundati0n diplomat approached me reasonably, we could’ve discussed it and if FDN provided a tangible reason for DFIAS to want to operate in Great Wildlands at all (we hadn’t entered the region except to pass through to other areas in months), it may have been different.
As to your reply to Ghost, FDN themselves have admitted to firing on neutral scout ‘alts’ - people abuse NRDS by using scouts in NPC corporations in shuttles and rookie ships, expecting that the gate camp or other force will just let the ‘innocent’ ship sit there a hundred kilometers away watching… even Foundati0n isn’t that naive.
I’m sorry, but your arguments are as ridiculous as Baske’s insistence that he wasn’t ‘threatening’ anybody when even knightstarNC - an actual diplomat for FDN - acknowledged that Baske’s words were threatening.
It’s not my fault Baske is bad at politics and overstepped his boundaries - knightstarNC might not have had the balls to force an apology from him, but I’d be surprised to hear about him doing it again.
September 26th, 2008 at 9:56 am
It’s not my fault you suck at reading. (I told you several times I was NO DIPLOMAT. I also told you that you could take my word as a friendly piece of advice. You took my words as a threat, your problem misreading my intentions, which I clearly defined for you. Some people are STRAIGHTFORWARD, and do not have any hidden agendas. I am one of these people.
But as this is no 3 or 4 times I repeat this, I haev a slight feeling im talking to a rock, which already has taken its stance, and can not be budged an ince by any circumstance whatsoever.
Stubborness ftw?
Keep imagining !
Once again, I did NOT threaten you. It was (is) your imagination.
You are a funny person to discuss with, because you really do not listen and follow up on what people write to you, you just keep talking about how I can not pretend to be a diplo and such, which I did not. Your imagination pretended I acted as a diplo, mine did not.
Stubborness??!
Pride?
Honor?
Why?
September 26th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Look how dumb you are.
September 29th, 2008 at 10:21 am
You were clearly blowing things out of proportion and IMO looking for a reason to make them red. You started the friendly unserious attitude before he even said a word to you. Then when he warned you that your bio might get you shot at you flip everything around and get defensive. I’ll keep in mind to never give you a friendly warning unless I want hostilities. Bad form IMO
September 29th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
What you and Baske seem to not understand is that ‘friendly’ warnings come from ‘friends’. You are no friend of mine, nor is Baske - neither of you, under any circumstances, is in a place to give any random stranger ‘friendly’ advice. I don’t know if you have the expression ‘veiled threat’ in your native tongues (Baske isn’t a native English speaker, as he’s said - I don’t know about you), but it’s a phrase you would do well to familiarize yourself with.
If FDN went around openly threatening people, they would jeopardize their anti-pirate reputation (if they still have it at all, since they’ve started charging some of their ‘friends’ rent in Great Wildlands!). Any discussion of standings and rules of engagement is a matter for diplomats; if you’re not a diplomat, keep your mouth shut.
You say, “You started the friendly unserious attitude…” So what, then, you expect everybody to respond to every conversation from someone they don’t know with immediate surliness and hostility? Should my first words have been “Who the hell are you? What do you want?” No… that would be to invite hostility and in the position my corporation was in at the time, I had more than enough enemies.
If KnightStarNC had done the right thing and forced Baske to apologize for his fuck-up, I would’ve had one less. But given that FDN will never be anything more than hot-dropping blobbers in NPC space (until someone kicks them out of it the way CAN got kicked out of Outer Ring), I’m not that worried about having them as an enemy to begin with. FDN, like CAN, sees themselves as more important and more powerful than they actually are ;)
September 30th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
I think you’re misunderstanding what friendly advice is. Friendly is describing the advice, not your standings with a person. You can give anyone friendly advice despite your relationship with the person. I support everything that happened after you said his attempt at diplomacy was failing. I just think that your accusations of threats put him on the defensive and that’s how things started going downhill. Veiled threat is such a vague term. He could have honestly wanted to let you know that your bio clashes with the image you’re trying to acheive, but your time dealing with diplomats has made you over-analyze peoples true intentions.
September 30th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
NRDS is a omplicated business, and clearly not well enforced. I don’t think Baske is being arrogant, but he may not have used the best choice of words and it became heated between you two. Why not just talk to the alliance diplo if you want them blue (like if you wanted to hang about in GW)? Personally, I’d just shoot F0undation pilots, they’re not particularly difficult targets and lack the discipline to really camp an NPC station if you live out of one. Good luck with them.